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Jay said in April 24th, 2005 at 11:03 am

I must say your posts are always so well thought out.

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woodenshoe said in April 24th, 2005 at 5:32 pm

wonderful, wonderful post-very well said.
have a good day

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Margaret Romao Toigo said in April 26th, 2005 at 4:02 am

Thank you, Jay. Do you have anything else to add? I would really be interested in your opinion of this aspect of the church/state issue.

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Jay said in April 26th, 2005 at 5:17 am

As far as the seperation of Church and State go…the general idea of it has been stretched way beyond what the Constitution stated. You may think this is because the Constitution evolves, but I have a different opinion. I am not about judging others for their beliefs…and we should all have the freedom to wroship or not to worship womever or whatever we want to. And the government should never intefere with an individual’s right to do so unless it has deemed an activity to be threatening to its survival…dangerous to others, etc.

That being said…I think liberals have taken this idea way to far…to the point that they have reversed the original intent of it. To many people, athiest, etc…are offended by some Christian symbol that was an expression….regardless if it by a government or not. The government is the people, and to restrict the government from expressing as individuals or groups any kind of religion is not an endorsement in any sense that the Consitutionp prohibits. Congress shall make no law that prohibits the free exercise thereof…etc. Making laws that prohibit the exercise of or promoting a particular religion…MAKING A LAW…notice those words. What the judicial branch does when it prohibits the free exercise of expression by taking down religious symbols simply because they are on public property is MAKING A LAW…that isn’t there job…nor that of Congress. Why can’t we all be free to express our religion?

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George said in April 26th, 2005 at 5:45 pm

Very well thought out and very interesting. Nice Job.

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Margaret Romao Toigo said in April 27th, 2005 at 12:12 am

I do think the removal of those symbols was petty, especially those that had been in place for decades with nary a complaint until now (and don’t even get me started on the frivolous banning of Christmas-themed decorations that had been put up on city streets for many years without anybody getting offended). If some people felt excluded, then they should have made the case for the inclusion of their symbols — and anybody could have easily won such a case — giving us multi-cultural displays that reflect our diversity (which is America’s greatest strength), instead of excluding Christians when a majority of Americans are Christian.

But there are so many far more important issues than this one. After all, these are only symbols and faith is not found on a granite slab and morality is not the text that is chiseled into it. Faith is in our hearts and morality is evident in deeds, not words.

When people talk about publicly displayed symbols in the context of exercising/expressing their freedom to be Christians, I cannot help but think of Exodus 20:4, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” and Matthew 6:5, “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”

To me, the separation of church from state is not about which symbols should or should not go where or where and when prayer and religious instruction are appropriate, but rather the idea that the state, which is made up of fallible human beings who are elected by other fallible human beings, is not qualified to be the arbiter of conscience.

Morality is not something that can be enforced with laws (this concept should not be confused with the prosecution of crime, which does fall within the purview of the state that is charged with serving and protecting the citizenry) that punish sin and/or reward virtue because, as mere mortals filled with pride and prejudice, we are not fit to judge the finer points of the subjective concepts of virtue and sin.

When the state assumes to be the guardian of conscience it strips that authority away from the churches, leaving people confused about where they should turn for moral guidance. This is the reason why the First Amendment says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” because the government is not God, nor even His representative on Earth and because we need to be free to choose our own path to the same basic unalterable truths that make a better world, that we should love God (or nature or whatever) and love one another as we do ourselves and let our faith take care of the rest.

The state cannot provide us with deliverance and grace because it is made up of people and deliverance and grace are God’s purview, not man’s. I don’t know about anybody else, but a government made up of politicians — regardless of their individual devotion to their respective faiths — is not an entity I wish to turn to for spiritual guidance.

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Jay said in April 27th, 2005 at 2:10 am

I’ve got an article up, that I would love to hear your opinion on. I don’t k necessarily want it to get into a state church debate, or a pick something wrong with it kind of thing. I’d like an honest opinion of the article as a whole, and your opinion on the entire concept it is portraying. There may be some elements you disagree with, but what I would like to know is what you think of the concept it portrays in general, and the ideals involved. Thanks, Jay

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Shi said in April 27th, 2005 at 3:18 pm

Came via Blog of the Day and found very well written resource. Will be here more often.

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Shi said in April 27th, 2005 at 3:19 pm

Did any one ever tell you that your tag line about birds and horses is very poweful. No?

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Jay said in April 28th, 2005 at 11:33 am

So you and your husband have published a few books?

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Margaret Romao Toigo said in April 28th, 2005 at 10:04 pm

I cannot take credit for, “Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds and horses.” It is a Dale Carnegie (1888-1955) quotation. I have a database of quotations and each page load brings up a new one at random.

Did you Google me, Jay? My husband has written many books (and magazine articles) about disaster recovery planning and data storage management and is a leading expert in those two fields. I just draw the charts and diagrams.

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Temple Stark said in April 29th, 2005 at 2:56 am

Oh, this is where you hang out. Awesome. How come I never clicked on your name at Blogcritics?

I shall return ….

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Margaret Romao Toigo said in April 29th, 2005 at 5:33 am

Thank you for stopping by. Sometimes I hang out over at Blogcritics more than I do here because there are a lot more people tuning in over there and my favorite aspect of blogging is conversation. In fact, my best writing is in my comments, not my articles.

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Dory said in May 3rd, 2005 at 6:22 am

This is an interesting post that raises some interesting points. I’m new to your site, and I don’t know if you consider yourself a a practising Jew or a Christian or neither. In the interest of disclosure, I do consider myself a Christian.

My comments are very long, though I think on subject. However, I don’t want to be rude, and if you want to cut this off here and just refer to my site, where I will (later today) post on this, I totally understand.

I don’t think that it is accurate to say that the “basic Judeo-Christian ethic upon which our country was founded,” can be summarized by this one (or any one) passage of Scripture. There is a whole, complex understanding of the roles of God, the Church, the civil government, the family, and the individual which can be derived from the Scriptures (both Old and New Testament, but mostly OT). It is this whole system of government(s) that I believe the founders applied to the establishment of our government, even though some of them agreed to it because they considered the Scriptures authoritative, and others agreed to it because they felt it was the system that Natural Law also revealed.

There are many aspects of this overall system, such as the people calling their leaders in church and state based on their qualifications and holding them accountable, rule by councils of leaders rather than vesting overall power in individuals, etc., but in regards to your post, I want to comment on a distinction between judgment and discernment, and also between crimes and sins.

All people are called upon to discern. Only those with authority are called upon to judge, and then only within the defined bounds of that authority. Individuals, for example are warned in Proverbs 20:19 against getting involved with talebearers and flatterers. How can this be done without discerning who qualifies as a talebearer or flatterer?

The verse you quoted is addressed to individuals and warns them not to judge, but not to not discern. Judging is what the gossip and the talebearer, and those who listen to them, do. They listen to gossip, and in an unjust way, weigh that evidence and pronounce a judgment on that person. Calling someone damned or lost is judging. Saying one ought to avoid dealings with this person, or not call him or her as a leader because of his or her character or morals flaws is discernment.

That being said, however, judgment is within the authority and responsibility of the Church and the state governments. The church is to judge its people (voluntarily bound to the church by vows or covenant) for sin, and the state is to judge all people within its borders for crimes. In so doing, these church and state officers are given the authority to call for and examine evidence, place witnesses under oath and compel testimony, etc. These are powers that seek to assure that the judgment will be as just as is humanly possible. The judgment of an individual could never hope to be just, because these powers are lacking.

The difference between judging and discerning is that judgment carries with it an official declaration of someone’s state as either (in the case of sin), lost or in rebellion against God vs. saved or blessed, or (in the case of crimes) either a criminal or not a criminal. Also the authority to judge also bears with it the authority to sentence. The church can excommunicate (or declare them to be outside of Israel in the OT,) and deny the sacraments, and the state can execute, require restitution, etc., as appropriate. These judgments were considered binding because of the God-given authority of the church or state.

So someone is in the church if the church says they are and someone is a criminal if the state says they are. Both types of judgment are subject to human error. No individual, (that is, not vested with official authority) as the verses you quoted say well, could ever be qualified to judge as an individual unless he or she was without sin. (First take the log out of your own eye…) Only one person ever qualified on that score, and He is the judge of all, under whom all human judges serve.

In medieval Europe this distinction between church and state had become blurred. The officials of the states were ruling state churches, appointing church leaders, and compelling people to worship there and/or not worship elsewhere. All this was counter to the Biblical system and it was one of the main political issues of the Reformation.

This is the problem the Establishment Clause was addressing. Our government was clearly and precisely prohibited from taking any powers of the church, including regulating worship, judging sin, etc.

However, this does not mean that the state does not have the authority to judge crimes, or that that judgment cannot be based upon a Biblical definition of those crimes. For example, the Scriptures define the degrees of manslaying our system of laws uses, premeditated murder, unpremeditated murder, and manslaughter. And these are definitions of crimes, not definitions of sins. The definition of murder as a sin is much broader, and even includes hateful thoughts, though the state is not given the authority to judge those kinds of lesser cases.

You speak of a free will. If you mean that in the sense of a freedom of conscience, I heartily agree with you. This concept, too, is entirely Biblical. Biblical government (both church and state) is very limited on what areas it can judge. For example, coveting is a sin, but no church or state authority is ever seen in Scripture to have the authority to find someone guilty of it. That is a matter of individual conscience and God will ultimately judge. Also, the founders recognized that different churches had come to differing conclusions on issues of worship, however, they chose not to interfere with them, but to allow individuals to decide which church, if any, they would bind themselves to, and leave it to the church authorities to judge those things.

However, just because the conscience is left free to discern in some areas, does not mean it is free to discern in all areas. We are not free to murder or rape, for example. I think most people would agree on that whether they are coming to that from a Sciptural basis or not.

So when Christians say rape is wrong and a crime, and cite a Scripture to support that assertion, most people wouldn’t object, because they agree with the conclusion, if not the source. However, when someone says unborn life has legal standing and quotes Scripture for that, suddenly the Christian is said to be foisting his or her morality on someone else or blurring the line between Church and State. Because one disagrees with the conclusion, one attacks the source, rather than admit that in both cases the Christian relied on an authoritative source outside of him- or herself, and the non-Christian relied on their own self-defined source. Somehow, the person with the Biblically-informed opinion is to be considered less than the person with the self-informed opinion. Yet both are opinions, aren’t they?

But I think people who do not view the Bible as authoritative fear large groups of people who do, because they see the Bible as conflicting with their way of life. Likewise, those who see the Scriptures as authoritative fear what will happen when they see large groups of people who do not share that conviction, because they fear that rights their Creator has endowed may not continue to be protected by a godless state. There is a mutual mistrust or fear, and if we are not careful, that mistrust can become bitterness and hatred, neither of which is helpful in solving the issues we need to settle in order to live with one another. (I believe that happens on both sides.)

Let me finish by criticizing my own. Christians sometimes err by attempting to legislate, in both the church and the state, where God gives freedom of conscience. One historical example comes to mind in our countries prohibition days. The move to prohibit alcohol was driven by Christian groups. However, though the Scriptures prohibit drunkenness, they do not prohibit alcohol altogether. The law violated the liberty of conscience we spoke of before, and Christians, in my opinion, would have been wise to reject the legislation on that basis.

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Wittenberg Gate said in May 3rd, 2005 at 6:25 am

On Judgment vs. Discernment and Sin vs. Crime

Today I visited a blog I hadn’t visited before, Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, written by Margaret Romao Toigo. She had an interesting post called Traditional Judeo-Christian Morality. I left comments there, but I wanted to post my thoughts here…

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Fresh Politics said in May 3rd, 2005 at 7:24 am

137th Carnival of the Vanities

EDITOR’S CHOICE

Ever wonder how much money goes out of your pocket and into the clutches of the government at the gas pump? Ironman at Political Calculations has the tool to find out.

Dave at Logical Meme writes about re-reading Madison’s Feder…

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[...] per reverence” to those who have gone before us. Margaret Romao Toigo writes about Traditional Judeo-Christian Morality at Land of [...]

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[...] per reverence” to those who have gone before us. Margaret Romao Toigo writes about Traditional Judeo-Christian Morality at Land of [...]

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Fresh Politics said in May 5th, 2005 at 12:10 am

137th CotV // Welcome

Welcome to the 137th edition of The Carnival of the Vanities!

This week’s CotV is hosted by Fresh Politics, a student-run political blog based out of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.

School’s out – I finished finals yesterday… …

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[...] Romao Toigo May 5, 2005 1:13 am About a week ago, I wrote an article called, “Traditional Judeo-Christian Morality,” [...]

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Luke Lea said in May 5th, 2005 at 9:46 am

On the separation of church and state issue: I am sure I am not going to say this very well, not least because I am sick, but also because it is hard point to get across to the current generation, who, born in this wonderful country, take their freedom and material prosperity for granted.

But to keep this precious heritage alive so that we can pass it on to our children and grandchildren, it is essential to appreciate how rare, and how costly, a thing it is.

To those who haven’t experienced absolute poverty, not as a local and temporary situation, soon remedied, but as a universal and world-wide situation with no imagineable earthly remedy — like the third world today, but with no first world in sight — it is almost unimagineable the effort, want, and privation required to escape it. It took generations and required religiou faith, not only that the world could be made better, but that those who undertook the task, with no hope of seeing the results in their lifetime, would receive their just reward in due course nonetheless.

Belief in God and in the promises of Jesus, as described in the Bible, are what supplied that faith and made the whole project possible.

Of course, this requires a world of demonstration, which is why I think it should be one of the major topics in the history classes our children attend as part of their regular secular educations.

Whether or not we should believe in God today is none of the government’s business. But an understanding of the idea of God, and the role which belief in that idea played in inspiring our ancestors to lay the foundations for the modern world we enjoy today — that is another thing altogether. I think such knowledge is indispensable if we are going to maintain this inheritance, and fully appreciate its worth.

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Evangelical Diablog said in May 12th, 2005 at 1:54 am

Defining Crime and the Limits of Civil Government

Below are links to a conversation between Margaret Romao Toigo of Land of the Free, Home of the Brave and Dory Zinkand of Wittenberg Gate. Margaret does not state her religious affiliation. Dory is a Reformed Evangelical and a member of the Presbyteria…

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[...] to re-think a few things. Here is the history of it thus far, in chronological order: Traditional Judeo-Christian Morality by Margar [...]

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